Sabbath vs Sunday - Discussion 2

Sabbath vs. Sunday

and the Law of Moses

a discussion between a Christian (of another denomination) and this website

Excerpts from her email are highlighted in Green; my responses beneath, so we can address the issues.

You brought up which day of the week to worship on. I don’t believe you asked this originally, but it must be on your mind, so here are my thoughts.

[Sabbath/Sunday discussion]

Historically, because the early believers were first Jewish, they worshiped in the synagogue on the Sabbath, on Saturday or really, the Seventh day. Once they began being persecuted, they were kicked out of the synagogue, and they switched to worshiping on the First Day of the week and called it the Lord’s day. The Catholic Church did not begin this practice. It is recorded in the Bible, and then was followed as a part of tradition from that point on. This is referenced in Acts 20:7-12 and Revelation 1:9-11.

In blue, that is NOT in the Bible, or at least in the Acts passage—you need to show that from history—where is it? Where (what reference) did the disciples call Sunday the Lord’s day? It is not in the Bible, but “supposed”, suggested or ‘implanted’ in there by readers.

Acts 20:7 simply says they were breaking bread (implying fellowship; and the Jews were harassing Paul in v.3) on a Sunday & Paul preached/spoke to them (as he was going to depart the next day). This does NOT explicitly state that Sunday (the 1st day) is the new Holy Day. It can be IMPLIED—that some say Sunday is now the special day—but the Bible does NOT explicitly or overtly teach this there—it’s just not there in the text. People read ‘too far’ into Acts 20:7.

{Also, technically, when Eutychus fell down from the window (v.9) it is MONDAY by that time, not Sunday, because sundown is the day-change, so it was late Sunday night, now Monday, when Paul was preaching late into the evening after sundown, because there were lamps (v.8) and Paul spoke until midnight (v.7) on a Sunday, which is technically now Monday….}

So I DON’T accept Acts 20:7 as a “day-changer” (Sabbath to Sunday) because it is not explicitly stated enough—you have to read into it or “imply” that the day changed. Or you suggested the history shows it. I need a “thus saith the Lord” (show me in the Bible about Sunday).

Similarly, Revelation 1:10 just says “Lord’s day”—it doesn’t say that it is Sunday (or Sabbath or Wednesday)—it just says “Lord’s day”, which was defined in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 58:13-14 NKJV "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, (14) Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Summary: Neither of the verses/passages (Acts 20, Rev. 1) have an explicit or declarative CHANGE—it’s something that is “read into the verse” or maybe implied. Isaiah 58 is a definition of the Lord’s day (“My holy day”). And we know Sabbath is from the 10 Commandments (Ex. 20) and Creation Week (Gen. 2).

I personally will not argue for Saturday, Sunday or any particular day, because I do not believe this is the teaching given for the Church in the New Testament. The Sabbath was a picture of Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. In Acts 15, when the Church was being established, there was a discussion in Jerusalem concerning the Gentile converts to Christianity. Some of those who had been saved as Jews thought the Gentiles should follow the Law of Moses and also be circumcised. “But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” Acts 15:5

Circumcision is different than the Sabbath, obviously.

But these Gentiles in question had not practiced the Law of Moses or been circumcised, yet they had still been saved by grace through faith and had received the Holy Spirit. Peter himself said, “Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” (vs. 10)

Yes, the apostles gave no such commandment {to keep the law of Moses} (Acts 15:24). James (v.13) concludes 4 things for the Gentiles: “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.” (Acts 15:20)

Sabbath is not a yoke; it’s a day of blessed rest:

Genesis 2:2-3 NKJV And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (3) Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

The false doctrine (I am agreeing with you here) is taught in v.1:

Acts 15:1 NKJV And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

So this is the “yoke” that they were unfairly putting on the disciples, "and to command them to keep the law of Moses” (v.5). The whole law of Moses, included all the many statutes and ordinances; and this would be unfair and not part of salvation—so I agree with you. But the 10 Commandments were different—“separate” in a sense. The entire Law of Moses was not in the ark of the covenant—only the 10 Commandments were:

So the issue is do the 10 Commandments still matter, and thus the Sabbath, and not the entire law of Moses? Do you accept “stealing” (the 8th Commandment, Exodus 20:15)? Should New Testament Christians steal, for example (because we’re under grace)?

(I obviously don’t follow the entire law of Moses, and neither do you: I don’t sacrifice a literal bull {i.e. Ex. 29:36 or Lev. 1:3-5}!)

After the discussion, the Apostles in Jerusalem sent a letter back to those who raised the questions stating that the Gentiles did not need to follow the Law of Moses, but they were to avoid the things related to sacrifice in pagan temples.

Yes, I think that is James from Acts 15:20, quoted right above.

No other command was given to them.

Jesus said ‘love one another’ (John 13:34) {there are many other commands in the New Testament that are not listed in Acts 15}.

“Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment...” vs.24-25. The point here is that worship on the Sabbath Day was a part of the Law of Moses. It was not required for salvation by those who established the Church or for continuing practice because it could not save and because its purpose has come to an end.

There is a distinction between the 10 Commandments and the totality of the Law of Moses. The 10 Commandments are still valid, not (parts of the ceremonial law). We are not saved by keeping the 10 Commandments; but those identify sin (Rom. 2:12, 3:20, 5:13/20, 7:7, …), and we can certainly be lost through sin! (I’m not going to preach the gospel to you here, I very much assume you know it )

Paul reiterated this point specifically in his discussions about the Law. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. We are connected with Jesus when we trust Him as our Savior. We fulfill the requirements of the Law through our relationship with Him.

And in that relationship, I don’t sin: I don’t steal, commit adultery, worship other gods…. Christians honor these values (not stealing), etc., but we only have this discussion when it comes to the Sabbath. Conversely (if I’m using that word right), “Thou shalt not steal, New Testament Christian”—is that putting a yoke? No, only circumcision and the Law of Moses was (in Acts).

What is the basis for the (eternal) judgment? New Testament James:

James 2:8-12 NKJV

(8) If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you do well;

(9) but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

(10) For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

(11) For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

And Paul is quoting the 10 Commandments (not the ordinances / Law of Moses) in Romans 7:7, talking about sin in Romans 6, and obviously in Romans 3:

(Romans 3:31 NKJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

“In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.” Colossians 2:11-19

“having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us” (Col. 2:14a) is our sins—that’s an expression for our sins—Jesus put them on the Cross!: “He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross” (Col. 2:14b).

(Colossians 2:16 NKJV) “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,”: none of this is the 10 Commandments—this is the (ceremonial) Law of Moses. [Where in the 10 Commandments is food or drink?]. Those were the celebratory/ceremonial Sabbaths (i.e. Lev. 23:24, v.27 {Day of Atonement}, and feasts….). This is “Law of Moses”, not 10 Commandments.

So Colossians 2:

said Jesus nailed our sins/transgressions to the cross (v.13-14)
and disregards the ceremonial law (v.16-17)

The feasts (Lev. 23:4) were different from the Sabbath (vs. 3-4):

(Leviticus 23:37-8) “'These are the feasts of the LORD which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— (38) besides the Sabbaths of the LORD, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the LORD.’”

So here is a distinction between the (ceremonial) law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

Later in Colossians v.21, “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle”. This is possibly Jewish tradition—certainly not in the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20), and even hard to reference in the rest of the Law of Moses!

So where is the 10 Commandments here, in Colossians 2? (Again, would you quote Colossians 2 at me if I said “don’t steal”?)

[Btw, total side topic, but do you tithe? Because that is a version of stealing in Malachi 3:8-10.]

When a person believes that Jesus died and rose for them, God applies Jesus’ righteousness to their account forever.

Yes! [except for the 'forever'--there is the investigative judgment, 1st Peter 4:17--this is another topic/thelogy.]

This is the reason we are not under any part of the Law of Moses.

You just told me I can sin. YOU JUST TOLD ME I CAN SIN. YOU JUST TOLD ME I CAN SIN. So now I can start going on a murdering rampage, for example?!?!?!??

Like Peter said, we Gentiles, cannot keep the Law of Moses any more than the Jews could. So Jesus died for us, fulfilling every last requirement of the Law for us. In this letter to the Colossians, Paul was encouraging them to not be discouraged and think they had to keep the Law. He told them to not let anyone judge them for food, drink, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths - all of these things were a part of the Law that the nation of Israel were required to keep as a part of their worship before Jesus came. These Colossian Gentiles Christians were not required to keep it, the Jewish Christians were not required to keep it, just like you and I are not required to keep it. These verses say that Jesus wiped out the “handwriting of requirements” against them (Jews and Gentiles) - the Law. These things that are in the Law that are listed here are all shadows of things to come, and they are all found and fulfilled in Christ and relationship with Him. He makes us righteous.

I already discussed ceremonial law vs. 10 Commandments. They had to go here:

for violating: (or for ordinances or offerings).

Paul said that the Law was a tutor. It taught right and wrong, the concepts of being holy, set apart, sacrifices for sin and many other concepts. But now that Christ has come. We no longer need the tutor. We no longer need the Law. Because the Law never made anyone righteous. It only shows us our sins. Jesus Christ made us righteous as the final sacrifice for sin. Jesus Christ makes us holy. Jesus Christ sets us apart. And Jesus Christ is our ultimate sacrifice for sin - once and for all - forever. When we put our faith in Him, all of these things are fulfilled in us because we are connected to Him.

Holiness, by definition, is not sinning or includes not sinning (are the holy angels sinning in heaven?). So there’s a contradiction here. Are we “holy” but still sin? What about Paul’s arguments in the Romans chapters that i quoted above?

For example, (Romans 6:14-15) "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"

Are we “getting rid of the Law” or keeping it, because Paul seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth in his writings!

“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?” Galatians 3:1-5

“O foolish Galatians!” (Gal. 3:1). This is righteousness by faith, in context; I think we both agree on that, and you are explaining it here:

The Galatians understood they were saved by grace through faith and not by works.

But then they thought they needed to go back and start practicing the Law again. Paul told them that they were trying to add the Law back on top of the faith they had, which makes no sense. They could not fulfill it to begin with. They were imperfect, and if they failed at one point of the Law, they failed at the whole thing. Its not about checking off a long list of requirements we can never meet.

I don’t think I fit this description of the Galatians in chap. 3—I am not practicing the (entire) Law of Moses--again, the distinction between the 10 Commandments and the entire law of Moses—as I described above. You yourself say “long list of requirements”—so you are not talking about the 10 Commandments.

Incidentally, there was “10 Commandment sin” in the Bible prior to when they were given at Mount Sinai in Exodus 20:

Sabbath-awareness in Ex. 16
murder (Cain & Abel, Gen. 4)
Joseph refused adultery (Gen. 39:7-9)
{I’m sure we could fine more—the law was added because of transgression, Gal. 3:19)

It’s about having faith in Jesus and resting in His finished work on the cross for us.

So that begs the question: Can I sin in Christ? Sin while in His redemption, while having faith in His work?? I’ve used the example of “stealing”…. Should Christians sin?

“Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” Galatians 3:21-25

Yes.

When it comes to the Sabbath day itself, like all other aspects of the Law, they were shadows or pictures of something that Jesus fulfills for us in our relationship with Him.

I’ve already argued about “stealing” (the 8th Commandment, Ex. 20:15). Was “stealing” just a ‘shadow’, then? (Again, ppl, only use Col. 2 & Gal. 3 for the Sabbath, but WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 9 COMMANDMENTS??) I’ve mentioned it—if I said I am going to start coveting my neighbor’s spouse and their goods, etc—would you mention Col. 2 to me, that this therefore is an ok thing to do…?] Even doing it in my heart….?

The Book of Hebrews specifically explains how Jesus is our Sabbath rest. He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath Day. The Sabbath Day was given to teach people to stop and find rest in God. Now that Jesus Christ, through His Spirit, lives within those who have faith in Him, …

[well talk about this below]

He gives us rest from our works continuously all the time.

Now this statement alone—how do we figure it out with James 2:17 +/-? It gets tricky when it says:

James 2:21-22 NKJV Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Or maybe you need to add: “rest from our works toward salvation”…? We are not saved by our works; but works are because we are Christians (or the Spirit working through us). Again, if I didn’t steal today, which I didn’t, am I now a ‘legalist’ or don’t have Faith, or “under the law”, or a foolish Galatian, or wearing a {heavy} yoke, or really don’t have Christ or believe in Him….? Silly!

We are at peace, at rest with God. Because Jesus’ death and resurrection was applied to the account of everyone who believes. God will not judge us for our sins.

Yes, but the Bible does talk about continuing with Christ. [This is a whole ‘nother discussion about ‘Once-saved-always-saved’ vs. Col. 1:23, 2nd Tim. 3:14, Heb. 3:6 & 14, ….]

“Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”... For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.” Hebrews 4:1-5,10

In context (“Therefore, Heb. 4:1), so we have to look at {the end of} Hebrews chapter 3, which is their wilderness journey (Egypt to Promised Land), where the literal Sabbath definitely applied.

Hebrews 4 is tricky; i still don’t think it gets rid of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is mentioned in v.4. With vs. 4 & 5, God is calling the Sabbath “His rest”. V.9 says there still remains a rest. So I don’t know about Hebrews 4, now.

{Incidentally, a short testimony from me here, my work-environment and my co-workers would be MUCH BETTER if they practiced the 10 Commandments—and you know there are other believers in Jesus there, at that large facility….}

The entire point of the Sabbath Day, is not about worshiping on a specific day. It was about resting from works as a picture that would be taken down through history and the Bible to Israel as a picture, as a shadow, of Jesus Christ. At Creation, God rested from His works on the seventh day.

Yes, this is a beautiful and very good interpretation for Sabbath, as a symbol, as a shadow etc. But the Sabbath is not literal any more? I don’t think so…. [This is ‘spiritualizing’ the Sabbath, and not taking it literally.] Again, we don’t just spiritualize the other 9 commandments—they are still literal, and we know God is watching our hearts for them (Matt. 5:19-23).

And here’s a tricky one, how does Jesus say:

Matthew 5:17 NKJV "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

if we’re getting rid of the Law (of Moses?)? So Jesus fulfilled the Law (for us) which He did, but He also says He didn’t destroy it (in that verse). (And you and many others say the Law is done away with; even myself say some of the Law of Moses is not applicable….)

Also (Sabbath minor point): on Sabbath we don’t buy or sell (shop), but the mark of the beast forces buying or selling (Rev. 13:17)! See how there’s a connection there?

Now Jesus Christ is the Sabbath rest of every person who believes.

That is just spiritualizing the Sabbath (not keeping it literal). But now Sunday is literal in Rev. 1:10! This is the “little horn” changing times & laws (Dan. 7:25)

If you choose to worship on Saturday, that is fine. If someone else choose to worship on Sunday, that is fine. If a third person decides to worship on Wednesday, that is fine. Paul specifically warned Christians not to put laws onto one another. We are not one another’s judge. We all have liberty in Christ. He alone is the judge of each of us.

And James says (as mentioned above):

James 2:12 NKJV So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

(in context there, v.11, he’s quoting 10 Commandments)

I suppose you & I can worship anytime. But technically, the Sabbath commandment says to NOT WORK on the 7th day = Saturday. So here, it doesn’t mention when to worship, but refraining from labor/work, to keep it holy. (working a secular job such as a secretary or in retail is NOT considered holy, so that’s a way of violating the commandment….):

Exodus 20:8-11 NKJV "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (10) but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. (11) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

“One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Romans 14:5-11

If you want to observe the Sabbath or feast days or any other part of the Law because it reminds you of everything that Christ has done for you, that is great! But it is not a requirement.

My greatest concern here is that you understand that everything in the Law, including the observance of the Sabbath day, were pictures pointing forward to the day when Jesus would come and fulfill all of those things. Now that He has come, died and risen again, all the requirements of the Law, and all the pictures and shadows of the Law, were fulfilled in Him. I hope that you can come to Him and rest in Him that all of our works, all our good deeds, all our traditions and observances will not save us and will not make us better people or please God. God is pleased with the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for us. If we accept this free gift, we have rest in Jesus and peace with God forever. Be at peace, be at rest.

{I don’t practice feast days—I try & do the 10 Commandments.} So there is a difference between being saved by works and doing works because of salvation (as mentioned above). Again, YOU ARE TELLING ME (allowing me) TO SIN!!!! {highlighted in blue}. As I mentioned, what about the other 9 Commandments? So my concern for you is your unrighteousness. (according to what you’re telling me.)

It is (my belief in) Jesus that causes me to do good works (like your ministry, I imagine <smile> ).

You speak mostly about ‘salvation’, not concerning the rest of the Christian life.

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have a peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand...” Romans 5:1-2

Yes, wonderful

It’s all about Jesus. It’s not about what we do. It’s not about keeping commandments we can never keep. It’s about resting in Jesus having done it for us. It’s about resting in the fact that God has forgiven us because we have faith in Christ. God accepted our debt for our sins as paid when Jesus died as our substitute for us.

There is a difference, as mentioned, between “being saved by our works” and doing works. You believe in works—I think—you have a ministry, sending mailers, reaching people, communicating with people. These are works, or better said ‘fruit’, and I don’t think you think you are being saved by them….

“For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)—remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.”

Yes, I have peace with God (Rom. 5:1 as you quote) because I accept Jesus’ sacrifice / believe in Him. I am not resting on Sabbath to be saved. It is one of the many blessings from Christ, God (the Father), and that Bible gives me.

We are not brought near to God or have a relationship with God through the Old Testament covenants, including the Mosaic Covenant (the Law that contains the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath). We are brought near to God, when we have a relationship with God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus was the sacrifice for humanity. When we accept the gift His death for us, God accepts Jesus’ payment on our behalf. Our debt is paid. We have peace with God. We have rest, our Sabbath rest, in Jesus.

Yes, thank you for preaching a good gospel to me (in the above paragraph).

I hope you have a great day!

Ok, ---------, thanks for waiting for this email response, and some final thoughts from me to you:

Sabbath was given in Creation week (Genesis 2). You accept the creation story (I think?) because you quoted God resting during Creation in green in our Hebrews 4 discussion above…or are you solely a "New Testament Christian"? You accept the Old Testament as a reference, or do you just get your theology from New Testament teachings only? Because, for example, Creation (not evolution) and Sabbath (not Sunday) are in Genesis 1&2. You know much of the New Testament references the Old Testament: Paul, Revelation…. Just some OT references in the NT:

“Jezebel” (Rev. 2:20)
“Balaam” (Rev. 2:14)
“Elijah” (Matt. 17:11-12)
Noah (Matt. 24:37)
Romans 4:9
Jesus fulfilled lots of the Psalms
[we could go on & on]

the general theme of your responses is “I don’t need the Sabbath [or the law of Moses] for salvation”—most of your discussions were “salvic”—related to salvation. (You didn’t use the term ‘legalism’, but that’s what it is.). What about holiness and sanctification?

All 10 of the 10 Commandments (or principles) are found in the New Testament:

Spiritual point: when faced with the 10 Commandments (Ex. 31:18, after the Hebrews left Egypt by faith), after a delay of Moses coming down from the mountain, they reverted into worshipping a golden calf::

(Exodus 32:1) Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, "Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."

(you can see how they are messing with the 10 Commandments already)

The 10 Commandments, which are a good thing (Romans 7:12), also describe the wonderful character of God, and therefore of Jesus (John 14:9):

You are telling me (and “everybody else”, by implication?) that you can go to heaven by breaking 1 of the 10 Commandments (of Exodus 20. By ignoring the literal Sabbath, you are preaching a gospel (?) that says I (or we) can go to heaven by breaking at least one (James 2:10)! This sounds devilish, that sinners are going to heaven!

You are aware that the Catholic System (“the Papacy”) changed (or reinforced changing) the 10 Commandments? Their list neglects idolatry (#2) and the Sabbath (#4--the use Sunday), and their numbering is different (than Ex. 20) because they split “coveting” (#10) into two….:

How did Jesus say “lawlessness will prevail” (Matt. 24:12) if the Law is just a ‘shadow’ or Old Testament (pre-Jesus) thing?

(and I’ll “give you” Hebrews 4—I don’t have a good understanding of that chapter that at this time <smile> )

Free books

I will gladly mail you (or anyone) a copy of this (~100pg) book 10 Commandments Twice Removed. Just give me a mailing address.

One of the BEST BOOKS you can read (after the bible) is “The Great Controversy”.

Free audio & read at www.ellenwhiteaudio.org/great-controversy

You will never appropriately understand Revelation if you don’t use the Old Testament—there are so many references in Rev. to the OT….

Challenge Questions:

1. What is the mark of the beast? It is related to worship (Rev. 13:15, 14:9, 16:2, 19:20). It is the mark … of … the … beast. It’s the beast’s mark. So who or what is the beast of Revelation 13:1?

you know parts of Revelation are SYMBOLIC:

a woman stands on the moon (Revelation 12:1). That is symbolic—not literal—as there have been no female astronauts who have gone to the moon….

a great harlot (whore) Babylon who sits on many waters (Rev. 17:1+). This is also symbolic because this is not a literal woman floating {on a raft} in a literal sea—that’s ridiculous if only literal—a woman sitting in a life-raft. Why would God devote more than an entire chapter (of Revelation!) to just 1 literal prostitute….?

2. What is Christ’s New Covenant (or the ‘second’ covenant, Hebrews 8:7) if the “Law” is done away with?:

Hebrews 8:8-10 "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (9) NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. (10) FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

(remember, this is the New Testament book of Hebrews, but it’s also quoted in Jeremiah)

3. Where is the gift of prophecy (1st Cor. 12:28, Eph. 4:11) in the New Testament church {after John the revelator}?

4. ‘Daniel was in Babylon’ (Old Testament book of Daniel). Is that a symbol for today—does it have any relevance for our modern times?